e85 conversion

[da is best]

So I know that I can find this anywhere on the net but what have you guys done locally to convert to e85, my current motor is an ls motor with cams, blox intake mani, tri y header, fll 2.5" Exhaust and its goin in a 90' ef

I'm thinkin all I need is a walbro 255 fuel pump and say dsm 450cc injectors and tune for e85, anything else I'm missing?

[AlexD]

nope

[da is best]

I'm wonderin if it will even be worth it though, that's the main reason I'm askin

[Weksos]

I'm sure you'll see some power gains especially when you have cams already. Thats one of my mods next year for sure!

[H2Beg]

I also changed my fuel filter to a stainless steel E85 compatible joint because people on H-T were saying the paper OEM filters can break down and clog injectors when running e85 over time. Not sure if that's true or not but that's not a risk I wanted to take with my brand new pricey injectors. I know there are lots of people that don't change it though and are fine.

[mn_supra_boi]

not enough mods to be supporting e85 need higher comp. to see good power unless u just want the smell of corn

[pat lehmann]

if the engine is stockish compression you wont see a large gain. it really shines when you can build a lot of compression in the engine or run more boost safely. plus the price of E85 has come way up so if the engine runs fine on pump gas it might not be worth all the hassle until you build a setup that warrants it.

[da is best]

Oh yeah forgot to mention my head has been milled so I do have higher compression then stock, I think it was .030 if I remember correctly with a felpro head gasket and arp head studs

[kinetics]

Injectors, pump, filter, and since it's an EF, new rubber lines.
And something to tune on...

[ej1_coupe]

just letting you i'm on e85 and only getting about 210 to the full tank... but i pump at 200miles cost me less then 25 bucks for a full tank

[da is best]

Injectors, pump, filter, and since it's an EF, new rubber lines.
And something to tune on...

Rubber or I heard people using stainless but the car will be tuned on crome

[Charlie Moua]

we went .055 on alex's b20 and will be right at only 9.97cr but even then because he doesn't have any nice cams i doubt he would benefit from e85 in na mode.

but forsure we'll go e85 when we slap on the turbo kit.

[inspector01]

I also changed my fuel filter to a stainless steel E85 compatible joint because people on H-T were saying the paper OEM filters can break down and clog injectors when running e85 over time. Not sure if that's true or not but that's not a risk I wanted to take with my brand new pricey injectors. I know there are lots of people that don't change it though and are fine.

I suspect that is actually shit getting cleaned out of the tank/lines and into the filter/injectors as I've never had a problem with filters or seen any that did, but could be the filter breaking down too I guess. It will clean out the tank/lines so its best to change the filter after a couple tanks, that being said though, I converted for probably 3 years on the filter that was in the car when I bought it (for who knows how long, could have been original) before changing with no issues on either.

[tork]

i would suggest new fuel line's for sure. dont have to be stainless steel just have to be e85 rated. also the filter would need to be rated for e85. reason these should be upgraded is that the alcohol contant in the fuel will start to eat fuel lines and such that arent rated for ethanol from the inside out, and by the time you notice your lines are all brittle and cracked a ton of contaminants have already gone thru the system. higher cr isnt a necessity although it would be more beneficial since ethanol has a higher octane rating than pump gas

[inspector01]

i would suggest new fuel line's for sure. dont have to be stainless steel just have to be e85 rated. also the filter would need to be rated for e85. reason these should be upgraded is that the alcohol contant in the fuel will start to eat fuel lines and such that arent rated for ethanol from the inside out, and by the time you notice your lines are all brittle and cracked a ton of contaminants have already gone thru the system. higher cr isnt a necessity although it would be more beneficial since ethanol has a higher octane rating than pump gas

And has been proven by THOUSANDS of people, this is not necessary, but it doesn't hurt either.

[tork]

And has been proven by THOUSANDS of people, this is not necessary, but it doesn't hurt either.

what has been proven?

[Charlie Moua]

with the e85 discussion... a lot of mixed info out there

however i would talk to people who have actually used it in real application not just in a lab or looking at chemical reactions ect...

[inspector01]

what has been proven?

How many years have you been running E85?? How many E85 conversion have you done?? (AKA, do you actually have ANY real world experience with E85 or just what you've read online??)

I do have quite a bit of experience with it, and I have NEVER had an issue with stock fuel lines and standard fuel filters, as have MANY others, hence it is proven that your suggestions are not needed (E85 lines and filters)

[tork]

what year vehicles have you run e85? ive not actually learned a damn thing about e85 over the wweb because you can never trust joe shmo from around the corner in the back ally, Hence the reason im spending a shit load of money to go to school to be a machanic. anyway i suggested those because it was gong into an ef.. when the manufacturer's didnt plan on their vehicles running 10% ethanol some components started to fail. this is also why if you have a carburated turd you should get new gaskets in it because the alcohol in the fuel will eat them away if they werent intended to be ran with a % of ethanol in the fuel.. not arguing just stating what ive learned from instructors that have 110 years of experience between the 4 of them

[Vi3tboy]

I'm running stock lines, stock filter, and am on e85. Even storing it with a quarter tank of e85 right now till next year LOL.

[tork]

I'm running stock lines, stock filter, and am on e85. Even storing it with a quarter tank of e85 right now till next year LOL.

what year is your car?

[inspector01]

Fair enough, a vehicle that is old enough it was never intended to have any alcohol in it, should have its lines replaced, but again, no need for E85 specific products. Also, ethanol has been widely used since the 70s, so even EFs are fine......

[Vi3tboy]

1988

[EJ_6]

1988

^haha.

[da is best]

Well I will eventually boost the shit out of it so I will get e85 either way but some good info already

[Charlie Moua]

I have e85 in my ef, so far so good..... lol

[kinetics]

IMO, it doesn't hurt to go the route of updating the rubber lines.
We're talking about like $30 worth of new fuel injection hose.
Who gives a fuck?

People will debate the "eats your rubber" thing into the ground.
I saw a thread somewhere on HT (I think) of a guy who put a bunch of shit in a drain pan full of E, and refilled it regularly for like a year.
If I recall, nothing got jacked up.
But we're also talking about running a car on E for likely longer than a year.
Over time, my bet is the lines will start to get mushy from the inside, just like radiator hoses.
$30 now for some insurance that I won't have an issue down the line seems like a no brainer to me.

[tork]

IMO, it doesn't hurt to go the route of updating the rubber lines.
We're talking about like $30 worth of new fuel injection hose.
Who gives a fuck?

People will debate the "eats your rubber" thing into the ground.
I saw a thread somewhere on HT (I think) of a guy who put a bunch of shit in a drain pan full of E, and refilled it regularly for like a year.
If I recall, nothing got jacked up.
But we're also talking about running a car on E for likely longer than a year.
Over time, my bet is the lines will start to get mushy from the inside, just like radiator hoses.
$30 now for some insurance that I won't have an issue down the line seems like a no brainer to me.

Thankyou.. gotta spend some money to possibly save money in the long run

[H2Beg]

Replace old hose with what? A new honda oem one or some piece of crap from napa that'll probably crack after a month? Kinetics if you think that over time the hoses will degrade then what the hell is the point of replacing an old perfectly good hose with a new one that'll just get the same problem? (a problem that doesn't even exist in my eyes because lots of people have been running E85 for years in hondas and have reported no issues that I'm aware of.) I say upgrade your pump/injectors and maybe your fuel filter if your feeling special and dump that shit in the tank and roll with it.

[da is best]

Indeed ^

[hatchback]

Indeed ^

e85 will clean everything out of your tank and will possibly clog in your filter. 10% ethonal in the car when it was released, your fine on that part. Just replace the filter every couple thousand for like 5k miles, filters are what 10$?

e85 also will clean you our motor, in stead of selling black slug and carbon buildup in your intake, throttle body, head, pistons it will be cleaner, your exhaust will have a grey color tone if im thinking right.

[da is best]

well that wont do much to mine since everything is new and clean already minus pistons but i cleaned those while the head was off, but this isnt my daily so i think i might put on 5000 miles in a year lol but i will change it like once a month since it takes like 3 minutes to do it

[inspector01]

I'm all for being cautious, but some of you guys are ridiculous. A new filter every couple thousand miles?? Come on, I did an E85 conversion (so old, dirty tank/lines) on a filter that I had no clue how old it was, and drove it 3 years, 20k+ miles with no problem. Under regular conditions, once a year is the most you would need to, and even that is being a bit cautious.

[tork]

I'm all for being cautious, but some of you guys are ridiculous. A new filter every couple thousand miles?? Come on, I did an E85 conversion (so old, dirty tank/lines) on a filter that I had no clue how old it was, and drove it 3 years, 20k+ miles with no problem. Under regular conditions, once a year is the most you would need to, and even that is being a bit cautious.

i'll agree with this.

[da is best]

aight!

[H2Beg]

Change it everyday bruh

[kinetics]

Napa lines work fine.
And they have an inner lining that is approved for e.

I'm not saying you can't do it on stock lines.
What I'm saying is that it's cheap to get lines that are a-ok to run e with.
It's called peace of mind.

[da is best]

Meh, if my stock lines go to sheet then I will change it, I looked at my stock ones and they look good

[ej1_ex]

I've been running e85 for about 2 years now. Still running the same filter and lines when I was on 89-92 pump.

[SlowEGG]

same here. I just changed my filter because the stock filter is ugly. Otherwise, no other reason lol

[da is best]

is there any difference in filters between the ef and an integra one? if the integra one will be better cuz it will be goin in a b18b swap ef...didnt know if the ef has a smaller filter or what not, and im buyin a walbro fuel pump anybody know if the 190 is big enough for e85?

[inspector01]

Filters may have been different from the factory, but im guessing replacement ones are the same. 190 will be fine for N/A, boosted would depend on your power goals.

[da is best]

When I boost I plan on 300-350whp

[inspector01]

Yea, you should be fine still, if you were going for much more though, get the 255. They are cheap enough....

[hatchback]

e85 will clean everything out of your tank and will possibly clog in your filter. 10% ethonal in the car when it was released, your fine on that part. Just replace the filter every couple thousand for like 5k miles, filters are what 10$?

e85 also will clean you our motor, in stead of selling black slug and carbon buildup in your intake, throttle body, head, pistons it will be cleaner, your exhaust will have a grey color tone if im thinking right.

I was saying that for people that are all nervous, wasnt saying that it should be changed.

[lane91dx]

So it sounds like I'm the only one that's ever had an issue with e85. This spring I bought a 90 SI with a high comp LS converted to e. I have no idea if the filter got changed or even if its the original to the car. I know that it did get a Walbro 255, DSM 450s, and a retune. Part way through the summer I started getting a gummy/rubbery build up on my injectors.
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee486/z6ef/photo-1.jpg

I am now collecting the rest of the parts to convert to braided stainless; partly because I wanted to anyway and partly because I'm sick of dealing with injector issues and cleaning them.

I guess nothing guarantees that the e85 is causing this issue, but it sure looks and feels a lot like rubber to me and I have no more logical explanations for it. If you do please chime in.

[tork]

^ when you get your steel lines in you should take one of your rubber lines and cut it open length wise and take a look. Are the outer walls of your rubber fuel lines starting or already look cracked and dry rotted? If so i can only imagine what the inside looks like.. :scared:

[miguel30660]

arnt dsm 450's to small and not ment to run E85?

[ej1_ex]

nOOB your posting on a thread that already has the answer your asking for.

[Vi3tboy]

he's just post whoring up everywhere.

[hatchback]

arnt dsm 450's to small and not ment to run E85?

450cc too small and not meant to run e85.... Hit the google button bud

[Shane@DBPerformance]

Most people think the black goo comes from gas stations. Normal pump gas will clean it up. As far as people have been able to tell, it might be from stations that added E85 but used old underground tanks that previously had been used to store diesel or some other gas. People have taken samples from gas stations and found the stuff the makes the goo in the E85 itself. It does some like some stations are more prone to it than others.

Here is some more info from someone else:

"Well, here is what I did just so everyone is clear. I filled a 40mL vial with E85 and blew it dry with nitrogen gas and mild heating (about 150*F). After there was no fuel left, I placed it under high vacuum to remove any remaining volatiles for about an hour. I was left with a clear sticky residue that smelled bad - like nasty frying oil. I dissolved this sample in the NMR solvent and analyzed it and it IS the same goo that was on the injector. There was smaller amounts of some other stuff in it as well, but the same peaks I saw in the black goo were in this residue. The black goo IS coming from the E85. It isn't naturally black, though. I suspect it just has soot mixed in with it that is giving it the color."


The black goo buildup mostly seems to affect idle.

[Shane@DBPerformance]

450s are big enough for E85 on an all motor car.

[tork]

nOOB your posting on a thread that already has the answer your asking for.

guessing your talking to me? well my bad im wasting your time, i guess its my fault your the one reading the thread :palm:

[hatchback]

450s are big enough for E85 on an all motor car.

x2. 450s and turbo good for around 300 depending on fuel rail pressures.

[jdmachine]

More like duty cycle.

[H2Beg]

guessing your talking to me? well my bad im wasting your time, i guess its my fault your the one reading the thread :palm:

Pretty sure he wasn't reffering to you bud ;)

[Vi3tboy]

nope he was referring to the n00b going around whoring all the threads up.

[b18_ef_hatch]

My injectors looked like the one in the pic on page 2 after one or two race seasons. As far as I know, and like the post from Shane above, I believe it to be the actual fuel.

My tank was cleaned prior to running the motor, new -10 lines were installed, and all fuel components were new and rated for E85. That leaves one thing, the actual fuel.

[ej1_ex]

guessing your talking to me? well my bad im wasting your time, i guess its my fault your the one reading the thread :palm:

actually I wasn't talking to you. I was referring to the guy posting above my post who was post whoring all over MNHONDAS.

[Jordan]

x2. 450s and turbo good for around 300 depending on fuel rail pressures.

Huh?! You obviously shouldn't be offering advice about this subject because you sir are incorrect.

[H2Beg]

yeahhh I would have to agree with Jordan. I'm not a turbo guy but I was maxing out the stock 345cc H22 injectors when I was making only 200whp...I didn't have a way to raise the fuel pressure at the time but still that was kind of a shocker....that was on 93 octane gas too..wtf

[hatchback]

Huh?! You obviously shouldn't be offering advice about this subject because you sir are incorrect.

on turbo.lol

[Jordan]

on turbo.lol

:palm:

[SlowEGG]

:lolhit: phail.

[Shane@DBPerformance]

You can make 300whp on 450s with pump or race gas if you are making it on a turbo car that doesn't rev high, but not with E85 unless you have 6+ cylinders or run a crazy high base fuel pressure(like 100psi base). Your typical Honda that makes max power at high rpms is going to have trouble making over 275whp on pump gas with 450s without running out of injector at normal fuel pressures.

[eastbethelboy]

check your im and see if its in there! open up throttle body and look. i have a feeling its more then just e85. Just my o2!



So it sounds like I'm the only one that's ever had an issue with e85. This spring I bought a 90 SI with a high comp LS converted to e. I have no idea if the filter got changed or even if its the original to the car. I know that it did get a Walbro 255, DSM 450s, and a retune. Part way through the summer I started getting a gummy/rubbery build up on my injectors.


I am now collecting the rest of the parts to convert to braided stainless; partly because I wanted to anyway and partly because I'm sick of dealing with injector issues and cleaning them.

I guess nothing guarantees that the e85 is causing this issue, but it sure looks and feels a lot like rubber to me and I have no more logical explanations for it. If you do please chime in.

[goldluderay]

on e85 with 450's on my h22 i was maxed out at 225whp...swapped in some 550's and made 235whp...

also my car on type s pistons made 215whp on 91 octane...i milled the head and ran flat face valve too get the compression up some and re-tuned on e85 and made 235whp same set-up same cams everything

[Garage_Boy]

I had dsm 450 on my D16 turbo, made 250whp@10lb. Forgot to check if i was maxing it out or not but this was on 92oct. Could of made more but it was still on a stock bottom end and I didn't want to push it pass 250hp.

[lane91dx]

check your im and see if its in there! open up throttle body and look. i have a feeling its more then just e85. Just my o2!


So I finally got a chance to look at the car today and checked inside the intake... its covered in the same stuff. This motor burns quite a bit of oil (so much that i've got a different motor to swap in for it. I just wanted to resolve what I thought was a fuel issue first.) I'm guessing that what is most likely burnt oil residue is getting into the intake through the EGR system. Does that sound logical to anyone else?

[da is best]

on e85 with 450's on my h22 i was maxed out at 225whp...swapped in some 550's and made 235whp...

also my car on type s pistons made 215whp on 91 octane...i milled the head and ran flat face valve too get the compression up some and re-tuned on e85 and made 235whp same set-up same cams everything

what cams?

[eastbethelboy]

I think you are having some crank case vent issue. Check for a faulty pcv.


So I finally got a chance to look at the car today and checked inside the intake... its covered in the same stuff. This motor burns quite a bit of oil (so much that i've got a different motor to swap in for it. I just wanted to resolve what I thought was a fuel issue first.) I'm guessing that what is most likely burnt oil residue is getting into the intake through the EGR system. Does that sound logical to anyone else?

[goldluderay]

what cams?



car was on skunk 2 stg 2 cams on 91 and on e85

[SlowEGG]

So I finally got a chance to look at the car today and checked inside the intake... its covered in the same stuff. This motor burns quite a bit of oil (so much that i've got a different motor to swap in for it. I just wanted to resolve what I thought was a fuel issue first.) I'm guessing that what is most likely burnt oil residue is getting into the intake through the EGR system. Does that sound logical to anyone else?

Seems like it's feasible. I've ran e85 for about two years now. Never seem gummy shiz in my intake manifold. Although I never tested the injectors to see how much they flowed after the year was done. Never really felt I had any issue's so I didn't bother.

[Tou]

E-85 does have a gummy like build up when compared to gasoline. I ran mine for 2 years daily driving and and noticed that build up also, not as bad as the injector picture but its like anything thats been ran. It doesn't leave that carbon/blackish coating like gasoline does inside the manifold or head, instead its like greenish/yellowish gummy film and is a lot harder to clean than the gasoline deposits.